I lived in Japan for a year, and I can’t recall ever having Japanese people ignore me when I spoke Japanese, and speaking English back.

However, I was living in Sapporo (a city of about 2 million people in the north of Japan), where there are very few foreigners, so it’s possible that they hadn’t ‘learned’ that foreigners don’t speak English. I was also wearing Japanese school uniform, which would have confused them more.

I get the impression that there are more Koreans who speak English well enough to communicate in comparison to Japanese. Maybe the only ‘solution’ they know of is to run and find someone who speaks English - whereas in Japan, that solution isn’t there, so they end up using Japanese.

Whenever I meet Japanese people in New Zealand there is always an uncertainty about their language ability, and I guess I might try their native language before I expect them to be at home in my own.

Then I’ll usually go along with whatever language they reply back in.

What about people who talk to non-English speakers in English, and then try slow, loud English? Do you get the same in Korea?

This happens to my friend here in Tokyo often. He has well developed Japanese language skills, yet he says that his Japanese interlocutors occasionaly respond to him in English on first encounters. He has come up with a humorous response. He asks them if in Japanese, “Do you understand/speak Japanese?”

Blinger, you bring up a good topic. Developing a skill to pretend that one doesn’t speak good English helps; often difficult for Americans and the like. Or answering to being addressed in English with the Korean 네? in a tone which tells that one expects to be spoken to in Korean.
Just my quick note.

And one other thing. “Second language” seems to be the common US term for what has perhaps sometimes been called “foreign language.” It really seems that the “second” here should not be understood as “2nd” but as “non-native.” Taken literally, there must be very few who actually learn Korean as a second language.

Of course, if you find yourself speaking to someone who’s stubbornly got it into their head that they will not speak to an English speaker in their own language, then there’s little you can do, other than just go away and speak to someone else instead.

I don’t think it’s (necessarily) an accent issue, by the way - except, bizarrely, as the exact opposite of what’s been said here. I’ve noticed in several countries that people who aren’t used to a foreigner speaking their language might be more willing to communicate with the foreigner who’s cutely stumbling along as a beginner. However, when that foreigner gets better at the language, then some people take that as some kind of a threat to their own face, and they feel that they have to speak to the foreigner in the foreigner’s language, just to show that they’re able to do so. Sometimes this is cited as being ‘helpful’. But if they don’t do it with the people who might need the help more, then it really says more about how worried that ‘native speaker’ actually is, in terms of what they fear other people might think of their foreign language skills. (“Isn’t he/she able to speak to that foreigner in the foreigner’s own language? Didn’t he/she get an education?”) ‘Other people’ here can certainly refer to bystanders (but could also be the actual foreigner, I suppose). I’ve frequently had Danes and Dutch people, for instance, being persistant in speaking to me in English in front of other Danes/Dutch people, irrespective of their level of English, but who’ve almost sighed in relief once they’ve been able to speak to me in Danish/Dutch when the others have gone.

I suppose that the main point I want to make is that not everyone is always going to have the same experiences. In addition, whether or not people normally reply to you in your own language or your L2 does not mean that you are good or bad at the L2. There’s no sense in measuring L2 language performance or self-confidence based on linguistic experiences with shopkeepers or bar-staff. We can’t make absolute rules here, in my opinion, as contexts can be altered by so many factors that it’s impossible to predict with certainty anyone’s pragmalinguistic behaviour. It takes two to tango! That’s what I think, anyway, but maybe I’ve been overdosing on those cognition pills again!

There is certainly more than one funny inverse relationship between ability and what people use with you:

I don’t think it’s (necessarily) an accent issue, by the way - except, bizarrely, as the exact opposite of what’s been said here. I’ve noticed in several countries that people who aren’t used to a foreigner speaking their language might be more willing to communicate with the foreigner who’s cutely stumbling along as a beginner. However, when that foreigner gets better at the language, then some people take that as some kind of a threat to their own face, and they feel that they have to speak to the foreigner in the foreigner’s language, just to show that they’re able to do so.

Donald Keene, the man who more or less created the field of Japanese literature in English, and translated nearly every major work, was reported to have commented that people praise you more for your language ability the worse you are. A really lousy speaker gets praised all the time, and extremely fluent people (such as he was - I imagine more so than all but a small minority of Japanese) never get praised. He actually used a translator a lot of the time, but was known to occasionally correct the translator on certain points.

A number of friends I have in New Zealand who are ethnically Chinese, but who have been speaking English for a many years have said that being told they speak English well is a kind of insult!

Of course, I believe Richard Feynman noticed that if you explain in their language, and they reply in your language, everyone is restricted to using simple grammar and vocabulary, and communication seems to work well. If everyone speaks in their own language, they speak more quickly, use more complicated vocabulary and stop to think less.

I happen to be subject D from the story and I thought I would elaborate on my position in light of all the comments that have been made.  It is true that I am bothered by Koreans assuming that because I am a foreigner I can’t speak Korean and therefore speak in English to me.  I am further annoyed when I speak in Korean and continue to get responses in English.  I realize that most foreigners in Korea don??t speak Korean. It is probably a “safe” assumption that a foreigner encountered by the average Korean will not speak Korean, but it is an assumption nonetheless and if one wants to be strict in one’s view it is basically a prejudice based on stereotyping.  While it is not a malicious prejudice, there is a sense amongst Koreans that their language is extremely hard to learn and that it is next to impossible for a foreigner to speak it effectively.  Most Koreans believe and feel they are being genuinely helpful by speaking in English.  I will admit that my irritation is partly due to my own pride but the issue goes beyond this.

As mentioned in Blinger’s original post it is not uncommon to see shock, fear, panic etc. on the faces of young employees when walking into a restaurant or store in Korea.  I think we can identify three possible thoughts that go through the mind of Koreans when they come across a foreigner: 1) Oh no! What I am going to do, I don’t speak English! 2) I speak some English but I am so shy and afraid of making mistakes that I will be embarrassed.  3) Here’s a good chance to practice my English.  (We might add a fourth, the Ajumas and Ajoshis [older women and men] who often don’t care one way or the other.)

Implicit in the first two reactions is a sense of obligation or duty to speak English to foreigners.  In my 8 years in Korea I have had many Koreans tell me of this feeling of obligation to speak in English when a foreigner is present and lamenting the fact that they don’t speak English well enough to have effective communication.  Ultimately, this feeling of obligation causes Koreans to feel uncomfortable in using their own language when they encounter a foreigner or are in the presence of foreigners.  To elaborate further, I was in a meeting where there was a guest lecturer from Australia giving a talk in English and there was also a Korean to translate.  When the lecture was over, the floor was opened for questions. The first Korean to stand up and ask a question first asked ??리 말로 질문????도??니깿 (Is it ok to ask a question in Korean?) Despite the presence of a translator, here you have an individual in his own country asking permission to use his own language. There is something very wrong with this.  This is just one specific example and there are many others.  Due to the nature of my job I have been at many international conferences in Seoul where English was the primary means of communication and even though there is simultaneous translation available I have witnessed numerous Koreans ask permission first to use Korean when asking a question.  In addition, they are often embarrassed and apologetic because their English is poor.  Remember, this is all happening in Korea!  I realize English is now becoming the worldwide lingua franca and many developing countries like Korea feel the need to strengthen their human resources with good English speaking skills. This is fine. However, no Korean should feel embarrassed or apologetic because his or her English is poor, neither should they feel obliged to speak English to foreigners they encounter. Ultimately, the responsibility of communication is with the foreigner (those that work and live here, not tourists).  Unlike Blinger, I don’t think it is unreasonable to expect a foreigner who is only going to be here for a year to learn how to negotiate day-to-day transactions. The Korean alphabet, although it appears formidable, is not that difficult to learn. Paying for things, ordering in a restaurant, taking a cab or bus etc. could be learned sufficiently within a few months given some effort and the courage to get out there and try.

I have nothing against Koreans learning English and trying to develop their English skills but I do not agree with the assumption they make concerning foreigners and the inability to speak Korean.  Of course, we all make assumptions and there is nothing intrinsically wrong with them as along as we have sufficient evidence attesting to their truth. Although it is probably true that most foreigners living in Korea do not speak much Korean, I would suggest that Koreans initially use Korean when speaking to a foreigner and if it is found that the foreigner does not speak Korean then use English if they wish.  Koreans can test their assumption right on the spot by simply initiating their conversation in Korean and if the foreigner is lost they can then try to help in English. This, I think, is a reasonable approach.  Essentially, I think it is important for Koreans not to feel that they have to speak English to foreigners.  The country is Korea and the language is Korean.  Any Korean should feel comfortable speaking in Korean at almost anytime (certainly an emergency situation would be a exception) and under most circumstances regardless if the foreigner understands or not.

I would also like to see foreigners who visit Korea have the same enthusiasm for learning Korean as Koreans have for learning English.  I realize this borders on idealism, but one’s experience in Korea or any other foreign country is greatly enhanced and enriched by taking the time and effort to learn enough of the language in order to communicate with the local people.

I would like to thank subject J as we have continued to debate this issue over the past week and he has helped me greatly in trying to clarify and work through my thoughts and ideas.  In addition, appreciation should go to Blinger for taking the interest in and initiative to post this topic.

Your stories bring back many memories of similar treatment in Japan. I recall when I was helping translate for a French woman of Japanese descent, she looked absolutely Japanese, but could not speak a word. Everyone would talk to her, then she’d look at me, I’d translate for her, she’d answer to me, and I’d tell them her answer. Then despite the obvious fact she couldn’t speak Japanese and I could, they’d repeat the process, talking to her and not me. Occasionally people treated her exceptionally rudely, as if she was some mental defective for being Japanese but not speaking Japanese. It was horrible at times. I couldn’t totally shield her from it as a translator, some of the rudeness was so obvious.
But things could be worse. I remember going to a calligraphy exhibit in Tokyo, trying to buy a ticket at the last hour before it closed. The very old lady at the booth just made that common crossed-hands refusal gesture, she wouldn’t sell me one. I told her (in Japanese of course) that I’d traveled from far away and I apologize for coming so late, but could I please buy a ticket and I’d only stay a short time? She stood up, and with a panicked look, shrieked “aaa! gaijin ga shaberu!” (the foreigner is talking!) and ran away into the museum, locking the door. A moment later, a security guard came out and handed me a xeroxed page with multilingual printout of museum hours, and walked off. I walked back up to him and pointed out that according to the sheet, the museum was still open. He refused to even answer me. Sheesh!
But this multilingual thing could be really REALLY bad. I never forgot a bizarre anecdote in Boye Lafayette De Mente’s book “The Japanese Have A Word For It.” He described an incident in Tokyo, IIRC it was in the 1960s. A workman was carrying his toolbox home from his job, when he encountered a Japanese man speaking English to a foreigner. He took out an axe from his toolbox and murdered the Japanese man on the spot. At his trial, in his own defense, he said that a Japanese person speaking English was so offensive, it enraged him so severely he went insane.

I agree with Blinger’s strategy for negotiating the language of discourse. It sounds rational, fair, and expedient.I would offer a couple of embellishments, that there is alot of gray area, and that English may not be the alternative language of choice. Even after negotiating the predominant language for discourse , there may be times during the interaction when one speaker or the other chooses to use language different from one that is the most efficient.

My second embellishment is that there are people who may be offended by the general assumption that every foreign face can or wants to speak English. I worked with a French national for some years who was often offended by people’s assumption that she could not speak Japanese and that she could happily speak English. She could speak Japanese and English fluently, but didn’t want to be lumped in with us Anglos.

There must be work out there on language negotiation strategies. Isn’t there? Instead of proscribing how people “should” decide these things, I think it would be interesting to read some research on what strategies people employ.

I call it “system error.” Sometimes, speaking in a loud and clear voice does the trick. Other times, I ask the person if she’s Chinese.

hi blinger,
first, i’m a fellew macquarian. got two semesters left. have you completed your program.

as for the topic. last year i started to respond to koreans (whom i don’t know) who try to speak english to me with the phrase 난 독일사람 이에요. 영어를 조금 밖에 못해요. 독일어 잘 알아요?  (I’m German. I only know a little English.Can you speak German?) Luckily, not many Koreans know German. I also use this when someone (usually children) says 미국 사람이다! (An American!) This bothers me despite the fact that I am American. I don’t like the stereotypical thinking that all foreigners are American. So I usually tell them I’m German, and they usually respond with, “오 독일 삼람. 왜 한국에 왔어요?” (Oh, you’re German. Why have you come to Korea?) My newest response to this question is to say, “난 축구순수 이에요. 내 이름은 Hans Beckenbauer 이에요.” (I’m a soccer player. My name is Hans Beckenbauer. I’ve actaully signed a few autographs.

hey again,
funny thing is most of those kids didn’t know who beckenbauer was/is and probably never will. one time i almost i got myself in a little deep as a couple of kids in a supermarket told their parents the same lie i told them and the parents started asking me questions about the team i was playing for and other details that i couldn’t answer. then my wife, with no idea what was happening, walked up and just told everybody it was a joke. a got a few sneers, but the kids kinda laughed it off. hasn’t stopped me though, still using those lines. if anyone asks i tell them i’m starting next season with the al ittihad

btw, thanks for checking out the blog. i’ve been working on the layout for awhile, but i think i’m ready to start doing some writing.

I have a question. Wouldn’t it be 걱정하지마세요? Is the omission of 하지 just conversational, or am I wrong that 걱정 is a -하다 verb?

the wife says that 걱정마세요 is acceptable in spoken or written language, so 걱정마세요 - your badge is fine…

In Europe clerks say “can i help you?” first in the native tongue then in English; the person being helped then chooses the language to respond in.  Or so I hear, I haven’t actually visited any EU offices.

When the Russians and Americans cooperate in space, the cosmonauts speak English and the astronauts speak Russian.  Or so they say, they always seem to be speaking the same language on TV.

Just some food for thought.

Mark sayeth: “The suicide rate for mixed kids in Korea is nearly 50%.”

Just not true, and I question the motive of anyone who could (and _would_) come up with such a figure, even the “nearly” part.

It might be worth nothing that the ROK National Statistical Office or the Ministry of Government Administration and Home Affairs does not keep statistics on the racial makeup of the Korean population.

Well, I heard that suicide rate from a friend of mine who worked as a missionary in Korea a few years ago.  I cannot verify it myself.  As such, I’ll strike it from my post.

However all of the other things I wrote about my Spanish speaking classmates’ and my “foreign born Taiwanese” students is from my own personal experience.  Regardless of the suicide rate, does anybody here deny that minorities growing up in Asia face some pretty tough hurdles?

  At least in Korea (and presumably much of Asia) I feel that it is a fair assumption that the foreigner doesn’t speak the local language and until proven otherwise the local should, if they can, use English. If the person they are talking to can demonstrate good skill in the local language then I would agree that the local language should be the language of discourse.

  What say you?

I say that’s racist.  I live in Taiwan.  I’m a native English speaker, but most of my old foreign classmates at Shida were not.  I’ve had half a dozen Spanish and German speaking friends leave Tawian because they felt like Taiwanese people were racist.  Think about it.  They saved their money, came here, studied hard, went out and used Chinese (the NATIONAL language), and people answered back in English, which they don’t even speak.

You can say, “well that was their choice to go to such a F#$@ed country.” That’s true.  But consider this- I used to teach English to several children of expats living in Neihu (in Taiwan).  About 2/3 of them were white, and none of them could speak English at all really.  All of them complained about being called “foreigners” even though they grew up here.  One German speaking boy, Michael, posted about that problem on an online forum.  Taiwanese people and foreigners alike mocked him and told him to get a tatoo explaining that he couldn’t speak English.  He ended up crying and depressed about it for months.  Nothing any of those students in Neihu did encouraged that kind of isolation or behavior from other people.  They can’t help it if they look white, but they are NOT foreign.  What does the convenience of a few lazy tourists (who probably go to asia expecting to hear other languages anyway) mean compared with the day in day out life of residents who are trying to integrate into society?